Let Your Writers Be Creative: Author to Teacher with Author Jarrett Lerner

In this Author to Teacher Episode: Conversations with published authors about writing, teaching, and how we can support our students, Martha interviews author and illustrator Jarrett Lerner. Jarrett's books include the EngiNerds and Geeger the Robot Series, Give This Book a Title and Give this Book a Cover, and the first book in the soon to be released The Hunger Heroes Graphic Novel Chapter Book.

Jarrett shares how, despite his love of writing, it took him some time to find the confidence and tools to realize his dream of becoming an author. He gives teachers insight into how we can spark a love of writing through encouraging creativity, the power of relatable and relevant books, and the importance of letting kids use their lives and interests as inspiration.

If you're a teacher who teaches writing, or really any subject, this is a helpful, insightful, and important listen filled with interesting, real life anecdotes and useable advice you can apply to your classroom today.

Listen along and learn how we can help our students find their passion and voice as writers.

Transcript

Martha: Hi, I’m Martha from Primary Paradise Teaching, and this is Author to Teacher. Conversations with published authors about writing, teaching, and how we can support our students. During each episode, I’ll chat with some amazing authors about their experiences as students, their journeys as writers, and their insights into teaching and learning from their unique perspectives. My hope is that these conversations will give teachers usable insight into how we can inspire our students to find their passion and voice as writers. Let’s get started.

Martha:

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to our first Author to Teacher episode. Today we have the honor of chatting with the one and only author and illustrator Jarrett Lerner. Hi, Jarrett. How are you?

Jarrett:

Good. How are you?

Martha:

Good, thank you. So,really quickly, I just wanted to share, Author to Teacher was basically a brainchild because I was wondering, what's the best way that we can encourage our students to not just write technically well, but to develop a passion and a voice? And then, all of the sudden, I thought, we should talk to the authors who are writing the books for our kids that are sparking their interest in reading. So, that's where that came from. So, with that, I'm going to pass it over to Jarrett. He is a fantastic author. I'll let him talk a little bit about himself, but we're fans in our house. My daughter is obsessed with his Give This Book a Title, and already told me I have to buy her the next one for Christmas, so that's on her Christmas list. So, Jarrett, I'm going to give you the floor, if you want to introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your books, and anything you want to share, go ahead.

Jarrett:

Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I think this is such a brilliant idea for a series, and I'm excited and honored to be your first guest on this. It's awesome.

Jarrett:

My name is Jarrett Lerner. I'm an author and an illustrator, and I make books for middle-grade-aged kids and younger. I've got a whole bunch of series out. I've got the Enginerds series of middle-grade novels. I've got the Geeger the Robot series of early chapter books, and I've got activity books, which you've so kindly mentioned the first one, Give This Book a Title, and Give This Book a Cover. I have a graphic novel chapter book series launching in just a few months, called the Hunger Heroes. I've got an illustrated novel in verse coming out next year, and a whole bunch of stuff that I'm not yet contractually allowed to discuss, but I've got a whole bunch more coming in those areas and more.

Jarrett:

So, yeah, I'm sort of all over the place with my work, but typically humorous and fun. I like to say my books have a lot of humor and some heart, too, when you least suspect it. So, yeah, that's sort of me.

Martha:

I think that sums it up, from everything that I've read, humor and heart. And also, I just think that the things that you share on your social media, like the things that you stand for are just things that teachers in general can get behind. Like, all books are valid, all books are books. Accepting diversity, all of that great stuff.

Martha:

So, let's hop right in it. I have a lot of questions. Hopefully we can get through them all. Here we go. Number one: When did you know that you wanted to become an author?

Jarrett:

I think I knew really, when I was pretty young. I think when I was about in third or fourth grade, and I know we're going to talk about specific teachers later, so I'll drop his name, and you'll hear more about him later, but I was in Mr. Lombard's class in fourth grade, and I think he really ignited the storytelling sort of fire in me, and sort of fanned those flames throughout our time together. But I never had an author visit as a kid. You know, 50% of what I do as an author... Maybe not 50. Maybe 35-40% of what I do as an author is visit schools. Virtually, in person. A lot of virtual this past year and a half.

Jarrett:

But I never had such a visit as a kid. I never met other authors until I was in my 20s, and so I believed all these myths. I developed and believed all these myths about authors growing up, that they were people for whom writing books was easy. That they did it quickly. I thought illustrators were people who could draw anything and everything on the first try. And I thought if you weren't able to accomplish that, that you couldn't be an author and an illustrator.

Jarrett:

So, it literally took until my 20s to sort of disabuse myself of those myths, and really understand that it's a lot of work, it's a lot of passion, it's a lot of resilience, and that's really it. There's nothing you have to have been born with to become an author. The majority of it is work.

Martha:

It's a lot of work.

Jarrett:

Yeah. So, I think I knew early on, but I didn't allow myself to believe it was possible until I was much older. So, something I do in all my visits is really drive that home, so that if there are any kids out there who either, whether at the moment or five years from then decide they want to do this, they remember, hopefully, that there's nothing stopping them, as long as they've got the passion, the drive, and a whole lot of resilience.

Martha:

That's awesome. That's good, too. I think our kids need to hear that, because I know my own children and my own students will try to do something, and if they're not good the first time, they're like, "I'm not going to do it." And that's super important for them to hear.

Jarrett:

Yeah.

Martha:

So, did you do well writing in school? Was that something that you were talented at automatically? Or I'm guessing maybe not so much, from what you just said.

Jarrett:

Well, so, I was really good at writing, and I always got good grades in writing. I wanted to be a good student. I had two college professors... my parents are still both college professors. So, as a student it was sort of like, I understood what it was to be a good student. I wanted to be a good student, but I think I did well in writing, and I did well in most of my subjects, but I think I exceeded when there was writing that I was allowed to incorporate my creativity in it. And I think when I, any time I got bad grades or wasn't doing my work and stuff, it was usually because of a lack of interest. It didn't relate to me at all.

Jarrett:

I talk a lot about the books that we have kids reading today in school. There's so much good children's literature out there, and as a kid, I don't think I read a book until high school that was written by someone who was still living.

Martha:

Wow!

Jarrett:

... Like, we read Roald Dahl. He was already gone. That was one of the closest we got. I don't think we studied books that were written by someone living. So, it was sometimes tough to drum up the energy to write an essay about a book that related nothing to your life or your experience. The fifth book in, it gets a little tough. So, I think my grades might have gone down at that point. Whenever I was allowed to incorporate my creativity into my work, which is sort of what I'm all about, if anyone out there who's watching this or listening has seen me present. When I was allowed to do that, I really thrived.

Martha:

Yeah, I think that's such a good message, too, for teachers, because obviously you have to teach the curriculum, but if it doesn't relate to students lives, and they're not even remotely interested, it's really hard to pull that creativity out of students when it doesn't relate to them at all. That's a really good point.

Jarrett:

Right. I often ask adults, I say, put yourself in that kid's shoes. If I give you a book, or ask you to write on a topic that means nothing to you, and that you have zero interest in, and you might even have a dislike for, are you going to want to sit down and write an essay on, I don't know, badminton?

Martha:

Right.

Jarrett:

It's like, of course not. You're going to dread it, too. So, how can we expect kids to be fired up about that? Especially when a lot of the skills, you're at the same time trying to teach them the skills to accomplish that, and it's sort of like a double... it's an even greater challenge.

Martha:

Right.

Jarrett:

If we can work their interests in, it's going to be the motivation for them to want to learn, and to want to achieve, is going to be built in.

Martha:

Oh, yeah.

Jarrett:

You can't just say, yeah, you can write all of your essays this year about Minecraft. Obviously, that's not possible, but if you can find little gaps and spaces to work that stuff in, it's going to be so much better.

Martha:

It does, it makes a huge difference. So, another direction, sort of along the lines of your experiences in school, and that's if there were any specific experiences that impacted your journey as a writer, as an author. And this can be good, bad, either way. Anything particular that you can remember from your experience in school?

Jarrett:

Yeah. I mentioned that teacher of mine, my fourth grade teacher, Mr. Lombard, he noticed... He was just a great teacher all around. He really put in the effort to get to know each kid individually, and to know what sort of got them fired up and excited, and he sort of worked that into class and lessons as much as possible. Whether it was just throwing out a metaphor, and saying... We had a kid who loved yo-yo in our class. Whether he just said, "Jerry, when you're yo-yo-ing, do you ever notice..." Something as simple as bringing the kid in, or something larger, by bringing in their interests, or whatever passions into it.

Jarrett:

But he did a lot of stuff for me, like I remember, we'd be reading a book, and he would ask me, he knew I loved drawing, and instead of telling me to stop drawing while we were doing read alouds, he would be like, "Can you make a map of the world that this story is in?" And he hung up the map on the wall, and it was sort of valued and used in class. He asked me to draw pictures of the people, so we could have an image of these people in our mind. And he, every chance he got, let me be creative with my assignments, and he encouraged me to do more outside of class. So, I got really fired up. We had to write fictional short stories, and I think we had to write one, and my mom still has it somewhere at her house. I think I wrote like 15 or 16 stories, and I illustrated each one, and he read them all and gave me feedback. He put them in a binder and everything.

Jarrett:

So, I think he really got me going on this journey, and I think if had had an author visit that year or the year after, and someone had been like, "Here's what you need, here's what you need to do, you can do this," I would have been like, from fourth grade on, I would have been like, "I'm going to be an author, I'm going to be an author!" But that other piece was missing. But that was great.

Jarrett:

A negative... I actually remember, I wasn't sure if I should share this, but I think it's mostly adults here.

Jarrett:

I remember... I didn't want to encourage any kids to do this, but I remember in the year after fifth grade, I think I had the exact opposite sort of teacher from Mr. Lombard, and I just remember, the eBooks were so, so hard to get through. They were just so... We read a book about the Revolutionary War that I think was probably written shortly thereafter. It was just painful.

Jarrett:

I remember, my friends and I would have one person sort of read the chapters and do a little writing about it, and then we would pass it around and try to make it a little different, and I remember getting caught, getting in trouble for doing it. And obviously, it was terrible, and I got in trouble, and I was upset and say and ashamed. But now when I think back about it, I'm like, imagine if I had had Kate Messner's book about the American Revolution, the History Smashers book, which I think is about to come out. I would have been so pumped, because that thing is great.

Martha:

Right.

Jarrett:

Now, for kids now, for kids like me. So, now I look back on it, and I'm like, the fault wasn't mine. I was being fed something that was basically a foreign language to me, and I couldn't understand it, I couldn't connect with it.

Martha:

Well, it's like they say, that behavior is communication, right? So, you guys were actually... I mean, I wouldn't condone your behavior as a teacher-

Jarrett:

Of course.

Martha:

But I think inside, I probably would have been like, well, I mean, they were being innovative there. It was teamwork. It's not all bad.

Jarrett:

And you know what happened with my friends, when we weren't doing the assigned reading, we were making comic books, and reading other stuff. So, we were reading non-school books.

Martha:

Right, which, why is that a thing? Why are there non-school books? Why couldn't you have made a comic about the Revolutionary War?

Jarrett:

Yeah! If Nathan Hale had been around when I was a kid, I would have been so, I would have been all about that Revolutionary War book study. But you know, it's really interesting, I've never even thought about this, but I just had a memory of when I was a kid, and that idea of school books. And sometimes my parents... And my parents were amazing. My parents were instrumental in turning me into a reader and a writer and everything. But they would sometimes say, "Is that a school book?" Just to talk to me about books. Not in like a, "Don't read that book." They would never say that. But just the idea that there are school books. That there are some books that aren't allowed in schools. I think that's going away, but that was such a thing when I was growing up. There were school books, and there were other books, and most of my books that I make today would not be considered school books by the standards of 20-25 years ago.

Martha:

Right. And I have to say, I know my own daughter is seven, and she's a voracious reader, and I think a lot of that is because the books nowadays, there's so many wonderful books, and so many wonderful formats. But yeah, the fact that there were school books, because I had the same thing, and my parents valued education, valued reading, all of that great stuff, and my dad is a teacher, but yeah, they would be like, "Well, you've got to read your school book first."

Jarrett:

Right. And now I feel like there's, at least a lot of teachers recognize that there's so many books out there, and there's just more creators, and the public are listening, where the content and the exciting, innovative approaches are sort of married. So, we talked about Nathan Hale. I mean, Nathan Hale, he, or Lauren Tarshis and her I Survived books, they have made history exciting for kids in such an incredible way, and I think more teachers are realizing, you can get both.

Martha:

Yeah, exactly.

Jarrett:

You can get books to read, and get that curriculum in there.

Martha:

Yeah, that's so true. So, next question... Well, I mean, this kind of relates, but I'll ask it anyway. Is there anything you wish your teachers had done differently? I guess maybe, made it relate to your life and not give you books that were written 400 years ago.

Jarrett:

Yeah. I wish... I can't really complain, because I had a great education. I was very lucky. I had tons of great teachers, and I was in a great school system and great schools. But I do really wish I had been introduced... I wish that I hadn't been left to my own devices to find those books, that I had to seek them out, I had to ask my parents to take me to the bookstore and find the books that related to me, and that spoke to me. I remember in high school, I started reading a lot of contemporary books, because my 10th-grade English teacher taught a contemporary British literature class, and that's when I really started reading contemporary stuff. But I think, I wish that had happened earlier, and I also wish there had just been more creativity incorporated into education in general.

Jarrett:

I wish that was valued, creativity and creative problem-solving. And I don't just mean, when I talk about creativity and incorporating in that more, I'm not just like, I wish teachers would let me doodle more, or draw more. It's not that. It's about understanding that kids are all creative, and that creativity is something we have to use every day, and it's one of the most valuable assets, and just things that we have, and that we need to develop. It's behind problem-solving. It's behind innovation. It's everything. So, I wish that was valued more. I feel like I had a lot of, read this book and take this quiz to let me know that you read it, and that you understood the plot. There just wasn't a lot related to real life.

Martha:

Yeah.

Jarrett:

Yeah, I thought that went viral, about wishing that in high school, there had been courses on taxes and mortgages. So, that's something else that I think about a lot. I wish that I had been given way more practical stuff, or how to get a loan, and open up a bank account, and use a credit card. I wish there was more of that throughout my education.

Martha:

Yeah, that would definitely be helpful. Being here in Sweden, they learn, all kids learn how to sew. All kids learn how to swim. All kids learn how to cook. It's very different, and it makes a lot of sense, because then adults can cook for themselves, as opposed to not being able to do those things.

Jarrett:

Right. I think American education... I think education at its best is preparing people to be strong individuals who can take care of themselves and thrive in the world, and contribute to the world, and I think American education has... I mean, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but it's slowly but surely gotten into this place where it's now prepare kids to prove that they can master these skills, get them to regurgitate in the right order on a Scantron sheet, and that's what our whole system has sort of been geared towards. And a place like Sweden is probably producing much happier, more content humans, who have lived more meaningful, positive lives.

Martha:

Well, I mean, that's what I hear. That's what I hear, yeah. And I've never taken a Scantron in my life as an adult, so... Yeah. But that's a whole other... We'll have to do a whole testing, over-testing chat. Okay, so I have another question, and that's, what advice would you give to kids who want to become an author?

Jarrett:

I always say that the best thing to do if you want to be an author, if you want to be an illustrator, is practice, and expose yourself to that thing. If it's writing, read a lot of books. If it's drawing, look at a lot of pictures. And it's not enough to just read or look. You have to be a conscious and critical consumer. So, if you're reading a book and you love it, you have to think about why you love it. Try to figure out what it is, and what the authors did to give you that feeling. If you don't love a book... I have to read books all the time that I don't like, for various reasons. But you can make the most of that experience and be critical and conscious, and say, what is this author failing to do for me? How can I make sure I don't do that in my own work? So, be a conscious and critical consumer.

Jarrett:

And then, really, it's doing it. It's sitting down and writing and drawing, and practicing and getting better, and being conscious and critical of your own work. And then, I always say that you need to, if you want to become a professional in this, you need to get comfortable and good at getting feedback, and dealing with feedback in a constructive and positive way. Sharing your stuff is scary. This morning, I finished a draft of something, and I just shared it with my wife and my editor, and it's scary. And they're probably going to give me a lot of feedback that might be jarring or upsetting, but I have learned and developed a skill of listening to people and valuing their feedback, whether I want to hear exactly what they're saying or not, and using it to create, make better work, to improve what I'm trying to do, and to accomplish my goal better.

Jarrett:

And that's a skill that I don't think, at least for me, wasn't really taught or worked on. How do you listen to someone's opinion, and instead of just saying, "You're wrong," say, "Okay, let me take this seriously, and let me value this, because it's your thoughts and feelings, and let me see how I can respond." I mean, that's sort of the basis of any healthy society, but I never really learned how to do that in school, I don't think. But that is an essential part of it. If you're an author or an illustrator and you can't take notes and revise and edit based on other people's feedback, you're not going to make it very far.

Martha:

I think that's true in almost any line of work, too, and you're right, I think that growing up, I never, that wasn't something that was ever focused on. You'd get a grade at the top of the paper, but there wasn't necessarily a conversation about what was good, what could be improved. And that's definitely a skill. I think it's really hard to hear, especially when it's your baby, it's your work that you've put so much effort into. Kind of like with teachers, when they're observed during a lesson, and then you have to sit and listen to the principal tell you what was wrong. Yeah, that is a learned skill, and learning that on the job is really difficult, I think.

Jarrett:

Yeah. I think what helps me as an author is, every book is a team effort. Every traditionally-published book is a team effort. There's a huge team of people behind the scenes. Even though authors get their name alone on the front cover, there's a huge team doing so much stuff. More than I probably am even aware of, and I'm aware of a lot of them. But the goal, and the thing that matters most, is the story. As an author and an illustrator, you're sort of bringing these stories, these imagined, made up worlds into existence, but then they sort of become more important than you. So, you've really got to kick your ego out, and just say, what serves the story best?

Jarrett:

I'm working on the second book in the Hunger Heroes graphic novel series, and there's a three-page sequence that I loved so much, and I think it's the funniest thing in the world, and I just think it's perfect, and through multiple rounds of revision, my editor and my art director have both said, "This doesn't work, and it's not landing."

Martha:

Oh no.

Jarrett:

"It's just repetitive, and it's not really... I don't know what you're trying... It's not working." And I just keep adjusting it a little bit, and leaving it in, and then getting feedback, and they're like, "This still is not working." And I know. Deep down, I know that I'm going to remove it, and it's going to break my heart. But the last thing I want is a kid to be reading this book and say, "Oh man, what is going on?" And be pulled out of the story. So, at the end of the day, the book matters more than any single person creating it, even the author and illustrator. That's my approach.

Martha:

I think that's good advice. I also think that that would be really good advice to give to students, like when you're revising their work, that can be really hard for kids, because again, it's the same thing. But to hype up your story, you're creating this amazing story, so let's do it for the good of the story.

Jarrett:

Yes! Yeah, I think talking about even just something that simple as the language you just used, saying, "Let's do it for the story," instead of your story. It separates it from being a personal attack, or something like that.

Martha:

Yeah. I think that's really, really good advice. So, speaking of revising and editing, how do you feel when you look at your earliest work? Maybe things before you were published?

Jarrett:

It's sort of the same... Well, it's similar to how I look at my published work. It's sort of like a mix of delight and... I think revulsion is too strong, but it's an interesting thing. Books take so long to come out, and to create, and to make, and this book I'm holding up, for those on the podcast after the fact, I'm holding up the first book in the Hunger Heroes graphic novel series. This is just an advanced copy. It's not even the final thing. It's being printed as we speak. But this book is probably the one that has the largest lag time between me finishing it and it publishing. So, that's been done... by the time it comes out, it will have been done essentially for 9-10 months, and I have grown so much. I've been working on multiple more books of these characters, and I've gotten so much better at so much with them, drawing them, writing them.

Jarrett:

So, it's difficult. Even a book that is in your very recent past, it can be difficult to look at it and say, "I'm different now. This is a snapshot of who I was then, and already I'm different." So, that, some days, that can be different. Some days, it's just total pride, and you're like, "I'm so pleased with my work." Some days, you're like, "I could have done that better," and you've got to sort of let that go.

Jarrett:

But I love looking at my oldest work, and I guess maybe the unexpected answer I'll give, because I could talk about this stuff forever, is that it's often inspiring and enlightening to me, because I think when I was younger, I created with a freedom that I'm constantly trying to harness and achieve as an adult, and is harder to grab. I'm often hyper-conscious when I'm creating, and in order to make the best work, I have to sort of get myself to a place of unconscious creativity, and just impulse, and that's where I often create my best, and the consciousness of it, the purposefulness, all the intentional stuff comes later.

Jarrett:

As a kid, I think I was just like that from the get-go. Give me a sketchpad, and I'm like, boom, boom, boom. Now, I'm so much more conscious that I have to sort of unlearn everything for 10-20 minutes before I can actually start working productively. So, looking at some of my old work and just feeling some of that energy can be really inspiring.

Martha:

I can see that. Kids are so good at being so creative out of nothing, and I think that's one of the reasons that I wanted to start these conversations, because I feel like school sucks that creativity out of them sometimes, because we're like, "Oh, you forgot your period. Oh, you forgot this isn't a complete sentence." And I know I would much rather have a student who writes a really good paragraph that is missing some punctuation and some capitals, and maybe some run-ons are in there, but it's a really good sentence, as opposed to the kid who writes a perfect paragraph, and it's like I'm going to fall asleep reading it.

Jarrett:

Yeah, right. Exactly. It's like, you can learn all the rules. The rules are easier to learn and acquire. That energy and that spirit, when that gets squished out of you, or shoved out of you, or drained, it's much harder to get back. I sometimes, I'm such an advocate for creativity, and I preach about creativity so much, because I fear that a lot of people, when it's gone, it's sort of gone. Like, it's hard to unlearn those things that stop you. Yeah. And it's even hard for me. As an adult whose literal job it is to be creative, it can be hard, because I've got so many things that get in my way.

Martha:

So, speaking of the creative process, how important do you think it is to love reading to be a good writer? How important is the reading aspect in your personal life to you creating good work as an author?

Jarrett:

For me, it's essential. And I hesitate to say it is essential, because I know a lot of authors whose journey to becoming authors and to being book creators, and to becoming readers, started at a place of hating reading, because of what they were given. Because of some undiagnosed and unseen and unappreciated problem, or issue they were having with reading, or struggle that they had. So, I know, I think, just as many children's authors who started writing books because either they hated all the books they read, or because they weren't understood and wanted to share a different experience and reach out to any kids out there who are like them.

Jarrett:

I think my root was much more traditional. I loved reading, and I wanted to create because I loved reading. I loved being swept up in stories, and so I wanted to try to create that magic myself. So, for me, reading got me where I am, and it still sustains me. I'm blocking on who it is now, but I was once in a session with an author who described it as filling up your well. Reading is like filling up your well of inspiration. And then, you go sit down at your sketchpad, your notebook, your computer, and you do your own stuff, and all of that inspiration, you're sort of calling on it and using it. And then, when it empties, you've got to go back.

Jarrett:

Pam Allen has a great quote, where she says, "Reading is like breathing in, and writing is like breathing out." And that's my view. They're two sides of the same process. I need it. I need to do it. I make time to do it. And a lot of my work has come straight from other books, from being inspired and excited by someone's idea, approach, style, concept, and just running with it in my own brain, and doing what I would do with it.

Jarrett:

So, for me, it's essential. And like I said, if you're reading and you're conscious and critical, it's also a form of pre-writing, saying, I love what this author did. How did they do this? And you're learning, and you can bring that to the page. So, the two are so linked to me that personally, it's essential. But I put that caveat, because I've now met a lot of authors who didn't read until they were much older, until they had become authors, just because of the experiences they had, and sort of the environment they were in.

Martha:

That's so interesting, and I just can see myself, the next time I have a student who does not enjoy reading, I can see myself saying to them, "Why don't you write the book you want to read? And you can just draw it if you're not ready to write the words." I mean, that's such a powerful... I've never thought of it that way, but just that... Because to me, I love reading so much, and I have loved reading everything that I can get my hands on, but I could see how if you had some kind of learning difficulty, or just nothing is interesting to you. But I love the idea of writing what you want to read, and then you're reaching you, the next you, which that's really cool. That's really powerful.

Jarrett:

Yeah. I just, I fundamentally have to believe that every human is a reader, and they just haven't found the right book, or they've got some obstacle in the way. And I also think that stories, storytelling, are the only way that we communicate. That's how we make meaning, and that's how we understand and organize ourselves and the world. All we are, our identities, are bundles of stories. The world around us, other people, it's all stories. When we communicate, we tell each other... I've probably told 30 anecdotes since I've been on. It's the heart of communication.

Jarrett:

So, I think a lot of times, maybe books aren't their favorite form of storytelling. Maybe the written word, maybe it could be something else. But I think we all love and rely on and need story.

Martha:

That's so true. I always tell my kids, when they say, "I don't know what to write," and I just will say to them, "What were you talking to your friend on the playground about today?" And they're like, "I was talking about how I played baseball this weekend, and then it was so funny because my mom got ice cream, and then it spilled." I'm like, "Write that. Write about that. That's a story."

Jarrett:

Yeah. I always encourage kids to mine their own lives for material. Whether or not it becomes a book, it's the best place to practice, the stuff you know best, and there's so much material. I meet a lot of kids. I do a lot of comic-making workshops, and kids often feel like or want to sit down and create and entire graphic novel. And it's just, it's a dangerous expectation, because it's just not going to happen that easily or like that, and it's not going to be as satisfying. So, I tell them, make a five... two, three, four, five, six-panel about you making your bed. You getting breakfast ready. You getting dressed. You playing baseball. Use your own life, and start smaller. There's so much material. And you automatically care about your own life. It's self-motivating. It's self-interesting.

Jarrett:

Yeah, so I always encourage kids to use their own life, because I think a lot of times when we give kids book after book after book, finished, completed book, written by a published author, that they spent years on it, they think that that is writing. But you know, that's not-

Martha:

Right, like you sit down, you're going to sit down and write a 500-page book. Like someone sat down and wrote a 500-page book in one sitting.

Jarrett:

Yeah. It's just, that's not the only... And I think, even if they are aware that that's not the only form of writing, I think in school, or sometimes just in our society, that's sort of prized over everything else. So, they say, writing about, making a comic about making my favorite snack, how does that matter? They think it's less than somehow, which is a whole different...

Martha:

And just talking making your own comic, I have to plug Give This Book a Title again, because... I don't know if I can find one. My daughter has made comics in here. Bu it has six frames with a little bit of a start for kids to get started in, and I could totally see myself, I might have to steal this and use it in my classroom if I have some reluctant writers this year, because writing a whole story can be daunting, but writing a three or four or six-panel comic is not so daunting, especially if you have something to start with.

Jarrett:

Right, yeah. I find kids love comics, and they love making comics, but the blank page is terrifying, it's intimidating, and especially when it comes to creating comics. Comics have their entirely own symbology of meaning-making. It's its own language. You're using words and pictures to make meaning simultaneously. Comics are incredibly complicated. So, to sit down at a blank page, and even just figure out the arrangement of panels. How many panels am I going to use? How many do I need? Even that can be daunting and confusing and frustrating. So, I find that the finish this comic ideas, I just kept finding that if I just worked with a kid, collaborated, gave them a little nugget of something to start with, they were off to the races. Give them a situation, a character. So many kids, I've been blown away by the way that kids use those activities.

Martha:

Yeah, they're amazing. I was trying to find one finished in here. I have a lot of half. She's got a lot of half ones done. Yeah, it's really, I think it's really, really helpful to take away this idea of a blank page, like you said. So, another question, what advice would you give for teachers who want to encourage their students to write? What's something simple that they can do to encourage their students to be more passionate about writing?

Jarrett:

Allow them, as much as possible, to start their learning from a place of personal interest and their own passion. Your kids will like writing more... I mean, just think about talking to a kid. If you ask a kid, average kid, say, "Tell me everything you did in school today," some kids might be gung ho, but I think most kids, especially if they're asked every day, "What did you do in school today?" They might be like, "I just did school." They're not very motivated to talk about it. You go ask a kid, "Tell me about... I don't know. Tell me about the last level of whatever video game you just beat." They're going to talk your ear off.

Martha:

You're going to have to sit down, because it's going to be a while.

Jarrett:

Exactly. So, if you can... I just think it's crazy not to take advantage of that natural interest and motivation. And even if it's just to start, or even if it's just the hook. I know you can't let them, in a classroom, just do whatever they want, and write about whatever they want, but just to allow them to do that. It's going to be self-motivating. It's something that's meaningful to them, that matters to them, that they care about, that they're excited about sharing with the rest of the world. So, taking advantage of that.

Jarrett:

And then, when it comes to moving on to something else, and getting better, and honing their skills, you can use that and say, "That piece that you wrote, what if we worked on improving it a little bit, and getting it better, so that you could submit it to the school paper, or submit it to this..." I don't know. Whatever. But that little thing that they created, that already matters to them, and that is already meaningful, that in itself is such a powerful resource and tool.

Jarrett:

So, I think that is my best advice, because I write for a living. I do it every day, and when I'm asked to write about stuff that I don't want to write about, I dread it, and I don't like it. I can sit here and write my stories all day, but when I have to write something that I don't want to write, it's the last thing in the world I want to do, and I love doing it.

Martha:

Right.

Jarrett:

I guess that's my biggest advice. Incorporate the kid's own interests, and it's going to be so much easier to work, and I think they're going to be more excited to learn.

Martha:

I think that's excellent advice. I think that works with any aspect of learning, but because writing in general tends to be difficult for students, that is really good advice. I have just a few more questions. I can't believe how fast the time has gone. What is, if you don't mind sharing, the harshest criticism you've ever received about your work?

Jarrett:

Yeah, so, I thought about this, and I won't say anything about criticism from my editor, because it's essential that's he's harsh. She has to be real with me. But when I was in college, just when I sort of decided that I might want to try to be an author, at the end of my college experience, I had a professor who, I took every English class that he taught, and I also took all of his creative writing courses, and did all sorts of creative... He was sort of like my mentor. He was also my advisor. So, he was my mentor, I guess, if I had one, or one of them, if I had one in college. There was a couple of professors.

Jarrett:

But in one of his creative writing courses, after I had told him that I wanted to try to be and author, and I was going to give it a go, because he's a published author, I submitted a short story, and he had me read it in front of the class. Like once, at the different workshops, someone got to read. They sent around stories before, and it was like, you would sometimes have a two or three hour workshop just devoted to you. And so, everyone got a turn, if they wanted it.

Jarrett:

So, my short story was read, and I got a ton of super positive... People were stoked on it. They loved it. And my professor let me just bask in the glory of all of my peers' praise and love. And their suggestions were like, "You could do this, but it's amazing as is, so I don't know why you would." It was just like the best possible feedback workshop.

Jarrett:

And then he said, "It's well-written, but you stole... You basically..." He's British, so I forget what slang he used, but it was somehow worse because he's British. But he basically told me that I just stole the entire plot of my favorite book, a Philip Roth book. He said, "This is just the ghostwriter in Jarrett Lerner's clothing."

Martha:

Wow!

Jarrett:

So, he basically let me get up to here, and then he knocked me down. And it was like, I suddenly saw, oh my god, yeah. I just ripped Philip Roth off. It's terrible. But he let me suffer that fall, and then after class, he took me out and talked to me, and he said, "This is essential. This is necessary. You have to write other people's stories, and figure out how they write them, and incorporate what they do into your own work before you can write your own stories." So, it was both the harshest and probably the best moment of writing advice I ever got. He let me get all the way up, and then knocked me down and said, "You're not going to get up there that easy. Here's the work you have to do."

Jarrett:

So, that was pretty amazing. That was really harsh and rough, and I hated him for a second. I was like, "Why did you just let them... Now I'm humiliated." But it was also probably the best lesson in writing that I could have gotten.

Martha:

That sounds like, yeah, I mean, at least he picked you back up afterwards. Because if he had just left it, that would have been...

Jarrett:

Yeah, and if he didn't know, if I hadn't already been talking to him about trying to make a career of writing, I don't think he would have done it to me. But he wanted me to know that I could do it, and that I still had a lot of work left to do. And it was great. It was very humbling, and I think that was what I needed at that age.

Martha:

And I think it's so true that the teachers that build your trust, and that you have a good rapport and relationship with, and mutual respect, you can tell your kids, you can tell your students, or if they're college students, how it is, and they can accept that because they know that you have their best interests at heart. He wasn't just knocking you down to knock you down. It had a purpose.

Jarrett:

Yeah, exactly, and that's sort of why I said I wouldn't share anything with my editor, any feedback from my editor, because it's all like that, where I've worked on, or will be working on... I have two different editors, but one of my editors, my main editor, we have 16 books together. So, when you work on 16 books with someone, you get very close, and you understand each other, and you like each other. She wouldn't still be working with me, she wouldn't have taken book two, three, four, to 16, if she didn't like working with me.

Jarrett:

So, she does that a lot. She's got the best interest for the story, and so a lot of her feedback is like, "This isn't right. Try again." But that's necessary. That was sort of my first taste of it. He was just giving me a little taste of the hard work that it was.

Martha:

Yeah, and it is, as you said earlier, it is hard work. I've got one more question, and then we have a few questions in the chat, and that is, you get to share whatever makes you proud right now. So, what is the book or the series that you're most proud of?

Jarrett:

I always say, when kids ask me what my favorite book I've ever made is, I always say, and this is true, any given book I'm working on at a moment. Sometimes I'm working on... most of the time I'm working on multiple books at a time. But whatever book I'm working on at the moment, if I don't believe and feel that it's the bet thing I've ever done, then I know I need to change something, and I know I'm not working hard enough. I never want to phone it in. I always want to give my best in the amount of time I have to complete a book. So, I always let that guide me. If I'm not like, this is the best thing I'll ever do, if I don't feel that, I know I need to change something to give myself that feeling. I know it's not there yet.

Jarrett:

But my activity books... With that caveat, I would say my activity books are things that I'm really proud of, because I want all of my books to be launch pads for kids. I often talk about them as launch pads. I don't want them to see my book as the be all, end all. I want them to read it and be inspired to go out into the world. And I often say of my books, and especially of my in-person presentations, I don't want kids to be impressed by what I can do, or only impressed by what I can do. I want them to leave me and my work impressed by what they can do, and I think my activity books get that across most directly. They're teaching kids how to be creative, and encouraging them creatively.

Jarrett:

So, I'm proud of those, and I mentioned that I finished a book this morning, or I finished a full draft of the book this morning. And this is a book unlike anything I've ever made, and it might be unlike anything I'll ever make again. It's based on my own experience with a lot of difficult things, and most of my work is very much imaginative and sometimes divorced from reality, and often-

Martha:

Wait, there's no talking tomatoes and cheese? That's not real?

Jarrett:

Right. There's no talking taco ingredients. This is about some tough real life stuff, and I've been working on this book and trying to write it in one way or another for over a decade, since I was in college. And the fact that I got it out of me in a cohesive, meaningful way, it was probably the hardest writing I've ever done, emotionally draining. And even though I've still got a ton of work to do before this book comes out in about a year, I'm proud that I, 10 years later, got a cohesive draft out of me, and the story is told and in one place. So, that's another thing I'm pretty proud of.

Martha:

As you should be. I'm very excited to read it. I've seen some of your posts about it, and it sounds interesting, and I think it's an important book.

Jarrett:

Thank you.

Martha:

So, I have a few questions in the chat. The first one is, can you show that comic prompt book again?

Jarrett:

Yes.

Martha:

There's two of them. I only have this one, because the other one at the time I think was back ordered, which is a good thing. But this is called Give This Book a Title, and the second one is called Give This Book a Cover, correct?

Jarrett:

Yeah.

Martha:

It's really awesome. I have a seven-year-old daughter who is constantly drawing and writing, so I got this for her, and she loves it. She's going... I didn't tell her yet that I was talking to you, but she's going to lose her mind. She's going to be so excited. And then, let's see. What grades are your author visits geared towards?

Jarrett:

The ones that I do for the books I have out, and that are coming out in the very near future, I typically do K through six, K through five. My Geeger the... My activity books work with any age. My Geeger books work with the younger elementary, typically, and then Enginerds work with older elementary and early middle school. And then, the Hunger Heroes books that are coming out are more, could be either way. For fifth-graders, they might be shorter graphic novels, on the short side, around 130 pages or so, and for younger kids, they would be graphic novels, or they're called graphic novel chapter books. Which, there are a couple of pages of narration here and there, but it's mostly a graphic novel format. And then, I do have some stuff coming out next year that will be for older middle school, and maybe even a little high school, which is terrifying. And then, I also have some stuff that could be even for the youngest, like pre-K, but those won't be out for a little bit.

Martha:

So basically, stay tuned, because there's a lot of good stuff coming.

Jarrett:

Yeah. I'm keeping busy.

Martha:

So, I have one more question in the chat, and if anybody has a question, feel free to ask it now, because we're coming to our end. I've already taken almost an hour of your time, so I won't take any more. But this question says, can you give advice for an 18-year-old recent high school graduate who might want to be a writer?

Jarrett:

Yeah. My advice would be, it would be similar to what I said earlier about just the general advice for anyone, no matter your age, which is read a lot, write a lot, be a conscious and critical consumer of the work that you read, and of your own work. Find people you trust to get feedback from, and learn how to use that feedback to make your work stronger and better, and to be comfortable and good at that process. And the other thing, I guess, which I share with kids who are older, or young adults, is to try to find a community. Whether you enroll in a program or go to a school for writing, or that has a strong writing program, or just find people, connect with people in your community, or they can be flung. Now the internet, obviously, social media makes it possible to connect with other people.

Jarrett:

Something that sustains me, and that I don't often talk about in interviews and stuff, but the writing community, the kids' lit community is something that I rely on all the time, that sustains me, and makes me feel like I'm contributing, makes my work feel even more meaningful, and that has helped me in so many ways. So, if you can find and be an active member of a community, whether it's a critique group and you share your feedback, or just meet for coffee and commiserate about your issues with whatever manuscript you're working on, that's huge.

Jarrett:

And then, I would say, put yourself out there. Practice putting yourself out there. Give your stuff to publishers. Query agents. Try to get an agent. Try to get a publisher. Try to get your stuff in magazines and zines and online platforms. Explore the options, and try to get involved and grab every single one. Because that really never goes away. I'm constantly throwing myself out there, whether it's a new manuscript, or an application for a grant or a program or a fellowship. You're always, the more you can do that, the better you'll get at it, and the stronger your voice will become.

Martha:

That's really good advice. I have a fun question. Someone asked, what job did you have after college, before you became a full-time author?

Jarrett:

I was very briefly a waiter. I worked at a Mexican restaurant, which was hard for me.

Martha:

Oh, so that's where the inspiration came from.

Jarrett:

Well, you couldn't eat on the job, and it's hard for me to be around Mexican food and not eat it, so it was a short stint. I couldn't cut it. I just wanted to eat all the guacamole, instead of serving it. But then, I worked as an editor, and I did some freelance writer. Various things. But I was always sort of swirling around the writing world, and staying as close as I could to it, as possible. Yeah, and even when I was publishing, I was still doing a lot of that stuff on the side. Selling one book, or even selling 18 books, doesn't mean that you can sustain yourself alone on that. I did ghostwriting for a while, which is fun, writing other people's books for them. All sorts of things, but I always tried as best I could to stick with something writing.

Martha:

Very cool. So, you were always kind of orbiting the writing world.

Jarrett:

Yes, getting a little closer to what I wanted to do. Yeah.

Martha:

Yeah. I think that that is all the questions. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us and share all of your knowledge. That was so insightful. I can't wait for... Just, that was so great. I feel like I learned so much. I hope that everybody else learned so much. So, thank you so much for joining us. And for everybody else, we will be back next week. Or, I will be back next week. Unfortunately, Jarrett will not be back. He'll be busy writing the next great graphic novel. But I will be back next week with another author, so we will get their perspective and go on this journey together. Thank you, Jarrett, again, and thank you everybody else for joining. So, any final thoughts?

Jarrett:

Thank you for having me. This was really cool. And I love listening to authors talk process and stuff, so I will probably be here next week as a viewer, listening in while I'm drawing or something, because I like listening to other people talk about this stuff more than I like listening to myself talk about it. But I'm honored and grateful to kick things off with episode one, and I can't wait to listen in and tune in for all the other episodes.

Martha:

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Jarrett:

Bye! Thank you!

Martha:

Thank you.

Martha:

Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode of Primary Paradise Teaching Author to Teacher. You can find more engaging, effective, and simple teaching ideas from Primary Paradise at myprimaryparadise.com and on Instagram and Facebook @primaryparadise. Be sure to tune in next time for more engaging conversations related to teaching. Keep learning and teach on!